Halacha 10a – Hilchos Kaddish – Hilchos Kriyas HaTorah

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Halacha 10a – Hilchos Kaddish – Hilchos Kriyas HaTorah – Speaker: Rabbi Zvi Aryeh Rosenfeld zal.
00:00 – Hilkhos Kaddish. The importance of standing during Kaddish. Eglon, King of Midian, showed respect for Hashem by standing.
03:22 – There are Malachim that correspond to parts of the body.
05:33 – A Minyan is needed to say Kaddish.
08:53 – Prohibition of idle speech during Tefilah.
10:36 – Responding to two different recitals of Kaddish at once.
13:23 – Laws concerning responding to blessings after the Chazon says Baruch Hu.
14:00 – Responding to Kaddish after Baruch Hu.
14:40 – Hilkhos Kriyas HaTorah. It’s strictly forbidden to speak during Kriyas HaTorah.
20:07 – Rebbe Nachman described hearing the sounds of Matan Torah on Shavuos.
21:01 – Both standing and sitting are permitted during Kriyas HaTorah. The Arizal sat during Kriyas HaTorah.
23:21 – Criteria for choosing a Chazan.

Unedited Transcript:

The din of the Kaddish, as we said, has the highest Kedusha. Therefore, it stands to reason logically, that since this is higher than Borchu, higher than Kedusha;
and by Kedusha and Barchu, there is no question about it at all that you have to stand.
So, as a result, by Kaddish naturally you have to stand also, at least as much if not more than the chiyuv of Kedusha and Borchu.
According to the Gemoro of course this is true.
The Gemorra says that Eglon the king of Moav, who was a goy, a nothing, an enemy of the Jews… when an emissary of the Jews came to see
him and then mentioned that “I have to tell you something in the name of Hashem”. When he mentioned Hashem’s name, in respect Eglon the king of Moav stood up.
Can you imagine, that he was a goy and out of respect for the word of Hashem he stood up. Of course he was rewarded, that Mashiach came through him.
From him came Rus [Ruth], who married Boaz, and she was the great grandmother of Dovid Hamelech and Moshiach.
That was his reward. He couldn’t ask for a bigger reward.
The same thing the Gemorra says that if a king, a goy, a goyish king stands up for the name of Hashem, how much more so kal vachomer surely should we stand up for a davar shbikedusha.
What is more Kedusha than the Kaddish?
Therefore, what is right? Definitely it’s smart that a person should stand for every Kaddish that he hears.
The Ari Zal says of course definitively it is better to stand for all. The Ari Zal himself (and this is the point in case you see people who sit for Kaddish, and this is what misleads them), the Ari Zal’s custom was that he would whenever in Kaddish he was standing at the time, he would remain standing, if he was sitting at the time, he would remain sitting.
Except for the Kaddish after kriyas HaTorah. When they finish laining, the Kaddish after the laining, that too he stood up for. Because according to those who stand during the laining, they’re standing anyhow.
Even those who sit during the lehning of the Torah, when it comes to the Kaddish after the reading of the Torah you must stand up.
The Arizal would sit regularly if the Kaddish came at a time when he was sitting, which was very rare of course to find himself in a situation in which he was sitting; still, for that Kaddish he would stand.
So, that means that most Kaddishim anyhow, you have to stand anyhow. You might as well, if you want to fulfill the Mitzva of giving kavod for a davar shbikedusha, [do] something which as a result [of doing] you’ll have nachas for generations [to come] as was in the case of Eglon. This would be the key: to show derech eretz, kavod for Torah.

(3:35) This is something which we’ve mentioned a few times and it’s important to note, that in the Tikuney Zohar we read about (the) Malachim who have different names:
Malachim “the masters of the eyes”, Malachim “the masters of the ears”, “the masters of the mouths”, “the masters of the hands”, “the masters of the feet”.
(3:50) It’s very hard to understand the pshat because ******. Anyhow, one pshat is that these Malachim all represent … the sefiros… ***** the sefiros which correspond to these parts of the body.
Since we know that these Malachim are created through mitzvos that a person does. So the malach is the baal of the aver (the master of that limb) that the person does with with these organs.
When he does Mitzvahs with his eyes, when he reads a davar shbikedusha, when he closes his eyes when it comes to looking at something which is forbidden.
Then these Malachim are created. These are “masters of the eyes”.
Now, speaking what is good and pure, or avoiding what is not, this creates Malachim who are “masters of the mouth”.
Now these Malachim “masters of the feet” which **** support the body. **** This is why netzach, hod, yesod are the foundations of the entire structure.
These masters of the feet are those who run to Shul, for example, who run to hear divrei Torah, who stand on these feet when it comes to a Mitzvah, rather than sit.
(5:10)
That’s why in all cases the Mitzva of standing is a true sign of derech eretz, not just in davening, but in the case of kavod to Torah. When the Torah comes in you show kavod by standing up.
When a Talmid Chochom walks in, you stand up. In the case of a parent, you stand. Kavod is always demonstrated by standing. The ba’alei raglan בעלי רגלין [masters of the feet].
That’s why in the case of Kaddish which is a davar shbikedusha then surely we should be zoche to do it with a kavana, with ratzon, we’ll have the zechus of having our tefilos niskabel biratzon (accepted favourably). Amen.

(5:55)
Speaking about the minyan answering the Kaddish: There must be a minyan which means that one person says the Kaddish and nine people respond.
Even if you have nine people saying Kaddish and one person responds, it’s also good.
There must be ten people active in the minyan. As far as not just Kaddish but it means the Chazan himself. The Chazan is saying the chazoras hashatz, and nine [other] people are there, only nine, and one person is not listening to chazoras hashatz. This one person is talking, and thereby subtracting himself and also the person he is talking to from the minyan and not paying attention to the shaliach tzibur.
So, there’s only nine left, no minyan. The shaliach tzibur cannot daven for them. It’s all a wasted Tefila. You must have nine listening.
Therefore, imagine the case of eleven people in a minyan.
So you have the chazan, with ten people listening to the chazan. One person starts to talk to his friend. What is he doing? He’s destroying himself, he’s destroying his friend by making him talk during chazoras hashatz,
and destroying the whole minyan because now there are only nine left. By talking to his friend, pulling him away too, you’d have only nine left.
That’s why the Zohar Hakadosh says that if chas vishalom a person talks in Shul devorim bteilim (idle talk) during davening, during laining, it’s one of the most serious offences conceivable.
That’s not all. He goes on to say that this person is not just in cheirem, but he has himself withdrawn from the Klal Yisroel, chas vishalom.
He has pulled himself out of the circle of Klal Yisroel close to Hashem. He’s excluded, expelled, chas vichalila.
The question is, a person could ask “how could it be that serious if we see people do it? All over you go to these Shuls and you see people sitting there talking in Shul as freely as though there were no price, no expense, no fine attached to it?”
The answer is in fact, if you look through the Navi, before the churban Beis Hamikdash you find the Navi screaming his lungs out. The Navi is screaming: “Jews stop! Stop and listen to me! There are serious events going on. There is going to be a holocaust, a churban, a destruction.” The Navi said that nobody paid attention. There was a cry in the wilderness, nobody paid heed. There was no chiddush.
It’s no wonder that we have these halachos and people are lackadaisical, they’re indifferent about it, they’re lethargic.
For those few who obey, there is a kiyum, and of course, if a person does not obey that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. You can’t close your eyes and have it disappear.
Every person will find that these Halachos are major ones, Brumo Shel Olam [standing at the height of the universe], when they [ie, these people who speak in Shul] are going to find, when the time comes for a reckoning, that they’re [ie, these infractions are] expensive, too expensive a price to pay.
Let’s get this point clear that in Shul, a person should know in front of Whom he is davening. The Shechina is there, [one should ] not to speak then devorim bteilim (idle talk), especially not when the Tefila is going on.

(9:38) That means even in the time when you can talk out.
Between Boruch Sheomar and Shmonei Esreh it’s understood [you cannot talk out].
But even during the repetition of the Chazan people say: “That’s it, the Chazan gets paid for it, he likes the job. Let him pray away.” Meanwhile, they can relax and talk.
That is an issur gamur Chas Vishalom.
If a person davened during the chazaras hashatz to make up the davening he should keep his ears alert for the Brochos. He has to answer the Brochos.
(10:08)
We said if there is one person in the minyan not paying attention he’s not part of the minyan. If a person is asleep he’s not part of the minyan.
There is one case though where a person does not answer, does not respond, and he is still part of the minyan and you can still go on without him. Even two or three people busy talking and they can still be part of the minyan. So the count is now there are only seven or eight left. That is if these two or three, or four, are davening Shmoneh Esrei.
If they are still davening and the Chazan is repeating the Shmoneh Esrei, they are mitzaref [are part] of the minyan.
Though they cannot answer, they cannot concentrate on what he is saying because they are davening themselves, they are still part of the minyan.
There’s a whole Sheila in reference to that but we will not go into that Sheila. There’s an opinion that says differently but we won’t go into it because the Halacha of all opinions is that it is permissible for the Chazan to daven. So, this is fact. The Chazan could daven with a few davening Shmoneh Esrei and it’s still considered Tefila Bitzibur.
(11:18)
Again, getting back to the last point:
If let’s say you have a minyan b’tzimtzum, or even much more than a minyan, and you have a few people saying Kaddish. And you know that paying heed, listening intently to the Kaddish is so vital, more important than in other part of the davening. A person tries to catch the Kaddish.
You come to a Shul sometimes and people come just to say Kaddish, like a “Kaddish factory”.
When you go inside there you feel like you are alone.
Everyone is there to say Kaddish. You are just staying [there].
Nobody came to daven.
So, all you get is a roar when it comes to Kaddish.
You can’t make out the different voices. They are not saying in unison. They are all going at different speeds.
You just get a clamor of voices. You can’t catch what’s being said.
So, in a case like that, it always pays for a person to ignore the rest of the Shul. Get close to one whom you can hear clearly and answer his Kaddish clearly.
If, at any time, you have two [people] you can hear clearly but they are not in unison. [For example,] One says “Amen” and then the next one says “Amen” a second later after you answered Amen [to the first one] you could answer Amen [to the second one], but you are not responsible for it. You are paying attention to your Kaddish. But, yes, if you could you answer Amen and then again to the other one.
If they come on the heels, one after the other very closely, then one Amen is sufficient for both.

(13:05)
If they are “one very close to the other”, like in a race one behind the other, then you can answer for both Amen ViAmen.
You don’t need to answer twice, but you answer once and it’s called Amen ViAmen (to answer them both).
(13:23)
It’s pretty difficult because your mind has to go very fast. You find yourself torn apart, like torn allegiance between the two. Who should you be more loyal to?
The best thing is instead of knocking yourself out, you concentrate on one and you’re excused from the rest of the Shul. You don’t have to worry about (some of) the others.
If you could catch two yehai shmei rabos of one who is saying fast and one who is saying slow, you’ve got yourself a real treasure there, it’s understood.
Sometimes you lose both because you tried to catch two of them. That’s very easy to happen.
Unless you do [answer] one or the other you find yourself lost in between and then it’s too late.
So, above all, you’ve got to try not to overdo, but to keep yourself close to one and stay there. At least you know you for sure you’re safe. You have one Kaddish [that you answered to].
We should be zoche to daven with Kavona and have our Tefilos niskabel. Amen. [End of this shiur]
(14:30)
It says that after the Chazan says Borchu then everyone is supposed to reply: ברוך השם המבורך לעולם ועד
Then the Chazan in turn saysברוך השם המבורך לעולם ועד .
Usually, when a person has an Aliya the same thing occurs. The person having the Aliya says Borchu Es Hashem Hamevorach. The people answer ברוך השם המבורך לעולם ועד .
The person with the Aliya again says these words.
At that time, the people answer Amen.
After the ברוך השם המבורך לעולם ועד they answer Amen.
Then he says the Brocho.
In this case, once we have entered into a new road a higher realm after Borchu, you cannot answer Amen any more except for the few times that we mentioned.
So, after the Chazan’s ברוך השם המבורך לעולם ועד people are not supposed to answer Amen.
There are some Poskim who say you should.
But the vast majority say you should not.
So if you see people who answer Amen, it is either because of an error or because somehow they have a minhag to follow those minority [opinions].
(15:51)
The definite, the better side to take, I wouldn’t say more correct but definitely the better thing to do is not to answer Amen after ברוך השם המבורך לעולם ועד .
Now while we’re on a topic, let’s divert for a second because we started with something. Let’s continue that.
Kriyas HaTorah – The Reading of the Torah:
Rav Noson zal says that when you take out the Sefer Torah, whether it’s the week days or Shabbos, it is exactly the same repetition of Matan Torah when Hashem is giving the Torah to the Jews.
(16:30)
At that time, all the Jews assembled at the foot of Har Sinai. It was a very terrifying awesome moment because there was thunder and lightning, and it was a time of fright. It was unparalleled. This never occurred before.
So, this awesome moment, naturally, it stands to reason [that] two things [occurred], as the Posuk says that:
1) “They stood.” No one would dare to sit down at a time like that.
When Heavenly forces like thunder and lightning are going at full force. They needed to hear Hashem’s Voice (imminently). No one would dare to sit down. They were all standing.
Rav Nasan Zal says: “and therefore at the time of Kriyas HaTorah which is similar to Matan Torah it is best for the person to stand”.
Even though the Shulchan Aruch that it’s permissible to sit, but better to stand.
2) Secondly, it is understood that if a person would dare to speak at a time like that when Hashem is speaking, it would be considered the worst possible crime. There’s no penalty too great for it.
We would say [the person deserves] a death penalty. [That would] be simple. To say “a death penalty” today for a person who talks in Shul (and a lot of people are doing that) Chas Vishalom, at the same time, you cannot minimize the words of the Zohar Hakadosh. The person who speaks then is in Cherem. Apparently, it’s not a death penalty on the ground. It’s a death penalty from Heaven. A Heavenly curse is placed upon that person Chas Vishalom. So that a person should know that number one, he should not speak. Number two, he should pay very close attention. Number three, he should know what’s going on, that what is going on parallels Matan Torah.
So, this is an amazing point. This is written [explicitly] בפירוש.
The Gomora says that what is taking place is that you have the Baal Koreh [reading]. You have to listen very carefully because this affects the Baal Koreh, this affects the Gabboim גבאים, it affects all.
You have the Baal Koreh who reads the Torah.
You have the person who is (being) called up to the Torah.
You have the Gabboim on both sides and you have all those listening.
Number one, this is very vital to note because this you will see (too) sometimes [that] people make a mistake in this, especially the Gabboim. That at the time of the reading of the Torah no one is allowed to lean on the Shulchan.
Now, in our case, we’ve never seen it because our table is very low. It’s not possible. But, in most cases, in most Shuls the Shulchan is much higher as is supposed to be. [RR shows the people at his shiur the difference in height of two different tables and says: “like this…notice the difference between the height of this Shulchan and that one. This is the wrong height for the reading of the Torah. It must be a higher type of Shulchan.”]
At the same time, it misleads those standing on the side [of the Shulchan].
The person who finishes his Aliya stands on the side [of the Shulchan].
He leans [on] his elbow [and] rests on it while the Baal Koreh goes through a long reading.
This is a very serious mistake.
It is absolutely forbidden. Just to lean [on the Shulchan] is very strictly forbidden.
(20:22)

There are a couple of places in Shas where Tosafos brings this fact: [like] at the end of Megillah and in Zvachim.
The Sifrei Kabola stress this very strongly.
This applies to the Gaboim, to the Baal Koreh himself when he lains and leans his elbow on the table and lains from the Sefer Torah.
This is very strictly forbidden.
This naturally applies also to the person who is getting the Aliyah and to the Gaboim who are standing on the sides, and to the person who is waiting who has completed his Aliyah already.
This is one item, “NO LEANING” [on the Shulchan] for anyone.
Secondly, the identity of these people. Who are they? What do they stand for?
There is no other place that I can recall where this applies, that makes such a similarity.
The Gemarasays that the Baal Koreh, the one reading the Torah, kivayachol represents Hashem, that is Hashem speaking, giving the Torah to the Jews.
The one who is called up to the Torah represents Moshe Rabeinu.
He is the one who is being brought to deliver, to transmit the Torah eventually to the rest of the Jews.
The Gaboim are those leaders who are waiting for Moshe Rabeinu: Aharon, Chur, and Yehoshua.
The Jews in the Shul are the Jews who were at Har Sinai when the Torah was being given.
This is the way a Jew is supposed to feel [during the Torah reading].
Reb Noson Zal says that a Jew who has Yiras Shomayim, true fear of Hashem, when the Torah is being read, is supposed to feel that [he is at Har Sinai].
Of course, it is difficult to feel it every Shabbos.
To feel it, to believe it, is a little difficult, but [one can feel it] a little bit because it is possible.
To actually sense that, you cannot sense that except on Shavuos night.
On Shavuos when the Torah was actually given by Hashem, then, you find many cases of Tzaddikim, Rabeinu Zal for instance, who was walking with a very holy Tzaddik on Shavuos [night] and he said to him: “do you hear anything?”. He [Rabeinu Zal] said: “listen”. He [the man] said “no”.
Rabeinu Zal said “if you don’t hear anything” (and this man is a big Tzaddik),
“if you don’t hear any thunder and lightning of Matan Torah which is taking place every Shavuos, [how can that be?], a Tzaddik is supposed to hear it.”
He [the man] said [he hears] nothing.
(23:08)
Rabeinu Zal heard clearly, exactly, exactly the way Matan Torah took place then because it is reproduced every single Shavuos.
At least we are supposed to know this [the Torah reading] represents Matan Torah.
So, we should have proper respect derech eretz for what is taking place.
So, let’s review that once more as far as Halachic wise.
The fact that speaking is forbidden [during the Torah reading] no one disputes that.
That’s absolutely [clear].
For those around the table to lean no one disputes that.
The people themselves whether to stand or to sit, this is optional.
Reb Noson Zal says it is better to stand.
(Others say,) The Shulchan Aruch says it’s a Mitzvah to stand (naturally).
But, it is permissible to sit. We cannot take that away. There are those [opinions] who can be relied on to sit.
Now, we go to the top: The Ari Zal sat during the Kriyas HaTorah.
We can’t ask questions why or how, but that’s a fact.
What is fact, [that] the Din is for a person who sits, is there are two times a person is supposed to stand up. (24:32) ***** One time is the Kaddish at the end of the Kriyas HaTorah. The second time is every time a person says Borchu. At each Aliyah, you’re supposed to rise for the Borchu. Then you can sit down the rest of the Kriyah. You can sit down for the rest of the Kriyah and for the last Brocho you may remain seated.
(24:51)
Stand up just for the Borchu itself.
[and also for] The last Kaddish. This is the minimum to show derech eretz for Kriyas HaTorah.
The Baal Koreh of course, the Zohar Hakadosh states very explicitly should be one who…
Interestingly, last week’s Parsha says a posuk that’s really a frightening bomb shell.
The Posuk says that Eisav came from the field when he was tired and he said:
הלעיטני נא מן האדום האדום הזה – “let me eat”.
In Jewish we translate that as “fress”. He wants to fress from this pot.
So that means that he’s not normal [when he says] haliteini – הלעיטני.
An animal says it that way. Haliteini means “what does he do this [haliteini] with?” With his mouth.
The Zohar Hakadosh that this [concept of haliteini] is not found in some isolated place.
In The Zohar Hakadosh it says this refers to a Baal Koreh.
A Baal Koreh is supposed to annunciate, pronounce the words right. Otherwise he is fulfilling “Haliteini Na”!
If he “fresses” the words without pronouncing them clearly [he’s fulfilling Haliteini Na], so that’s how important it is for the Baal Koreh to prepare the Kriyah, to pronounce it properly.
At the same time we find here where it says about a Chazan, that we are supposed to be selective. A Chazan, a shaliach tzibur, should be one who is fit.
Rabeinu Zal, of course, goes into a different realm entirely to tell you what a Chazan/Shaliach Tzibur means.
Even according to Shulchan Aruch it says that a Shaliach Tzibur should be “at least”, notice the requirements:
“At least one who is completely pure of any kind of sins.
He’s an older person preferably; completely pure of sins.
In his youth, was devoid of any kind of wrongs. He never a thing wrong while he was young.
He never had a bad day to go out on. There were no statements [circulating] that he was kidnapping children, or that he was making people [become] crazy, or that he was teaching them wrong things, [or] anything [wrong] at all.
And that he is an anav – עניו, truly modest.
And that everyone in this Shul wants him as a Chazan.
And that he has a very sweet voice.
And one that draws the person’s interest, an esthetic voice.
And one that customarily reads, learns, not just Gomora, but that [also] learns Tanach, psukim, so that he’s accustomed to these words in the Tefilla.”
These are the minimum requirements.
If by some remote chance, you cannot find a Chazan who matches all these requirements, should it occur that for any Shul this [type of Chazan] is not available, and they have to pick out from, they have to select from, nebach, from those who are present in this Shul…
it says to pick the best [one] you’ve got. Pick your best shot.
But that’s as far as you [should] go. You don’t have to go outside to look for one.

(28:40) [From here 28:40 until 30:33 – RR is kibbutzing around with his students:]

You are allowed to pick the best one of whatever crummy lot you have (:
That’s cruel. Baruch Hashem we have some fantastic selections here.
All of them are A1! They’re all perfect.
As far as their tzidkus goes, they are tzaddikim, no question about it, I’m sure.
I haven’t the slightest doubt that you’re not allowed to mistake a Jew.
Actually, they’re all pure bitachles -בתכלית; so pure, they’re transparent. (:
The only thing I’m in doubt about is that “sweet voice” [requirement] it says here.
That I don’t know about, maybe….
But, we have a good selection. That’s no problem.
We just don’t have those who want to go [to the Amud].
There’s one thing that says you overdo it. Of these qualities, they have too much of these qualities!
One, when it comes to modesty, ahhh! They’re way out! Too modest is also not…
They’re too modest, they don’t want to go to the Amud.
[29:38 **** can’t make out what he says here]
(29:41) So, as long as the Din says that among those that are here, if you can’t pick out a Chazan [i.e., who fits all the above requirements], pick out the best one. It says [to pick] “the wisest and the biggest Tzaddik among them”.
So we’ll pick the wisest and the biggest Tzaddik [laughing]…
But…, Baruch Hashem, nohr freilach [be only happy].
We should be zoche to see each other again in Simcha and Toov Levov טוב לבב, with hatzlocho, and to merit to continue this minyan. To continue the minyan without fail chas Vishalom… to continue the kavod of Rabeinu Zal through this minyan.
We should get together again in gichins mitoch simcha vanachas [soon and with joy and nachas] in the zechus of Rabeinu Zal. Amen.
[End of this shiur]
30:35 – New Shiur begins
Tefilla bitzibur requires a minyan as we explained previously.
The minyan means ten that are awake.
If one is asleep, which doesn’t happen frequently but by some people it’s very possible.
When people are davening, the mind wanders off and they slumber, fall into dreamland. One who is asleep is not considered part of the minyan. You have to see to it in certain places that they keep an alert eye to watch over the members of the minyan.
If a person… [end of cassette].